Transcript: MTA Chair and CEO Lieber Appears Live on WNYC’s The Brian Lehrer Show on Friday, Jan. 10, 2025

MTA Chair and CEO Janno Lieber appeared live on WNYC's The Brian Lehrer Show to discuss congestion relief and other transportation-related issues.

A transcript of the interview appears below:

Brian Lehrer: This is the Brian Lehrer show on WNYC. Happy Friday, everybody. And on Day 6 of the congestion pricing toll to drive into Manhattan below 60th Street, the Chair and CEO of the MTA, Janno Lieber, is here to answer my questions and yours. We'll open the phones in just a minute. Hold off for just a second before we bring Janno Lieber on. I'll set this up with a lead story from the business magazine Crain's this morning that says bumper-to-bumper gridlock on Manhattan streets has noticeably evaporated this week following the launch of congestion pricing. So where is everybody? Ridership data indicates that at least some of those motorists have migrated to mass transit, with 500,000 more people traveling on the city subway, buses and commuter rail on Tuesday, compared to the same day last year. 500,000 more. Far and away the biggest ridership jump Tuesday was on the city subway system, this says, on which more than 3.7 million people traveled, an increase of over 400,000 travelers for the equivalent day in 2024 according to MTA ridership data reviewed by Crain's. So, in other words, of the 500,000 more on mass transit, generally 400,000 were on the subways. It then goes on to say 80,000 more passengers boarded buses on Tuesday, bringing the day's bus ridership to north of 1.2 million. And the commuter rails, Metro-North and the Long Island Rail Road, each saw increases of about 30,000 riders. It's less clear what's unfolding on mass transit that originates from New Jersey, according to Crain's. NJ Transit spokesman Kayla Mulumba said the agency has quote, "not seen, not seen a notable ridership increase this week," but declined to share ridership metrics specifically. But travel times by car on the Hudson River crossings have sped up, indicating fewer cars according to real time traffic data from Google Maps cited by Crain's. And we have this on the Jersey beat from our news department of Shirley Matthews, a woman who has directed traffic to the Holland Tunnel for a decade.

Shirley Matthews Soundbite: "We were shocked, like I said. I never expected to see this, and I've been in New York for almost 45 years. I've never seen it like this."

Lehrer: Anecdotal evidence, but there it is. So, for better or worse, or it's complicated, early indications are that something is changing because of congestion pricing. And with that, Chairman Lieber, thanks for being accessible for this. Welcome back to WNYC.

Janno Lieber: Always good to be with you Brian.

Lehrer: And, listeners, you can call or text, 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692. But, listeners, let me suggest this. Let's not have the pre-congestion pricing debate all over again. The toll is on, so call about the present at 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692. What you certainly can do is say how it's affecting you if congestive pricing has added a burden to your life that has you resentful this morning on Day 6, by all means, call and describe what's happening. 212-433-WNYC. If congestion pricing is making you smile because it's made your life easier in any way, or you just think it's good for the city and good for the world, you can call too, and of course, if you have any questions. 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692 call or text. So, Chairman Lieber, did those numbers from Crain's sound like what you're seeing on this first week of the toll?

Lieber: Yeah. I mean, the subway ridership was up 400,000 as you said, from a comparable day in 2024. Other you know, the Long Island Rail Road and Metro-North were up. But here's the bottom line. We have been going up for a while. I mean by the end of 2024 we were, you know, apples to apples, over 80% of pre-COVID on subways. Long Island Rail Road and Metro-North are pushing 90% of pre-COVID. We have made substantial progress. So, we're working on the data right now to try to isolate what can be attributed to congestion pricing. There's much, you know, there's progress on mass transit ridership, and there, you know Brian, you had it right. The anecdotal evidence about traffic in Manhattan is very positive.

People are putting all kinds of things on social media about how they're going on buses, even drivers coming in and out from Jersey, from the boroughs, are saving you know 20, 30, 40 minutes in their travel times, and they're noticing. We have seen a reduction in vehicles crossing on the City DOT East River bridges, but we've also seen it on the MTA Bridges and Tunnels, the Queens-Midtown Tunnel and so on. So, the anecdotal evidence and we're still working on the data is very positive. The other thing that I'm experiencing is I went for a walk in Midtown a couple times this week and traffic agents are, the people who deal with traffic every day, are high fiving me. One guy gave me a hug. It was not unlike what you heard from that woman who is a Holland Tunnel expert. People are noticing how much less tension and road rage and the volume of traffic that people who have to deal with it all the time, they're noticing a drop off.

Lehrer: Yeah. Friends of mine who live on the Upper West Side and in Astoria, have both said they've noticed that they can jaywalk across the street without being afraid of being run over by a car like they would have been in the past. Of course, jaywalking is now officially legal, so you won't get a ticket either. But even Upper West Side and Astoria, they're noticing less cars, fewer cars on the street and the residential neighborhoods. Anything specific on who's changing their behavior the most by geography, or income group, or profession, or any other demographic?

Lieber: Listen, I don't. I think it is premature for us to give that kind of granular feedback. But what we do know is that the people who drive realistically are better off than the people who take transit, broadly speaking, you know. Low-income people, 95% of them who come to the Central Business District take transit. The drivers are disproportionately a little better off in part because most of them have to pay for parking, which, in the Central Business District in Midtown or Lower Manhattan, costs a fortune, right? So you know, to the extent that we're, you know, there's impact, there is a little equity part of this. You know, transit is one of the very few things that makes New York affordable, and our middle class and working class and even low-income folks do take advantage of that.

Lehrer: We have some anecdotal evidence coming in on the phones. We took calls on this earlier in the week too, and people were definitely noticing different traffic patterns and things in different places, including some jam ups, which we'll get to just outside the congestion zone. And that's obviously one of the big complaints people have. But let's hear first from Bob in Bay Ridge. Bob, you're on WNYC. Hi there.

Caller, Bob from Bay Ridge: Hi Brian, thanks for taking my call. Just to give you a little background, I'm an architect with a lot of training in urban planning, so I was always a proponent of congestion pricing because of theoretical reasons. But what I did not expect is that it's drastically reduced the traffic in my part of Brooklyn, I guess a lot fewer people are taking the car this week. I drive my daughter from Bay Ridge to Park Slope every morning. All this week, my travel time from Bay Ridge to Park Slope has been about half of what it normally was previously. My wife takes the express bus to Lower Manhattan. She also has reported that she's seen much lower traffic, much-- less delays, less traffic delays every day this week. She's getting home earlier every night. I mean, we love it. It's really been a benefit. However, I have a lot of friends in the music scene who are very concerned that this $9 fee is going to make it harder for them to come in and play gigs in the city. So, you know, I have a little mixed feeling, and I feel bad for them. I don't think it's really going to be such a problem in the long run, but for me, personally, it's been fantastic.

Lehrer: Thank you, Bob. Chairman Lieber, anything on Bob, including his concern about his musician friends?

Lieber: Interesting insights. You know what Bob has described is something we're hearing. One of the principal routes in the city, to the crossings in Manhattan, is the Gowanus which comes from right from Bay Ridge, and Fourth Avenue and Third Avenue are really heavily used routes. So, I'm thrilled to hear that he's having something better. But one, you know, what I would say about the you know, our musician friends, is bear in mind that, you know, for folks who are doing music, and that's, you know, late night activity, the price of the congestion fee is discounted by 75% after 9 p.m. So, people who would pay nine bucks, you know, with the credit, also if they're coming through the Hugh Carey, the Battery Tunnel, for three bucks. But if they're paying nine bucks, and normally paying nine bucks, they would pay two and a quarter. So we did take that, you know, take that subgoup into consideration.

Lehrer: That might be a group of audience members coming in for a late-night set, the musicians themselves, probably would have to cross before that and pay the $9, the $9. But another piece of anecdotal evidence in a text message, listener writes, "I have had to drive into the city twice this week because I was transporting things to my work, and I was 30 minutes early each time. Just took me 15 minutes from Greenpoint to East 10th Street in Manhattan." But then somebody hearing Bob's call from Bay Ridge chimed in and wrote, "I live near Bob, and I don't see this at all. Maybe on the BQE, but surface streets are bad." So, there's all kinds of anecdotal evidence. Marsha on the Upper West Side, I think, has a possible horror story, if true. Marsha, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Caller, Marsha from the Upper West Side: Hi there. So, I had a stove delivered yesterday and the guy said that he had go through four zones. Excuse me, my voice is weird. And he said it was $20 each zone. So, I said, does that mean it cost you $80 to get to me? He said yes. So, is that possible?

Lieber: No. Marsha, I'm a, I'm a refugee. I grew up on the Upper West Side, so without getting into block by block stuff that I had no idea what your friend may have said, but the toll is only, it's nine bucks for a personal vehicle, for individual automobile, no matter how many people are in it and that runs from, you know, 5 a.m. to 9 p.m. during the week, and it's only one time of day, so there's no risk of multiple charges for your friend. So--

Lehrer: It was probably another state. They were delivering a stove, and what's the fee for trucks again? Delivery trucks?

Lieber: I think it's like 20 bucks, you know, depends on the size of the vehicle. 

Lehrer: So, there's her $20 reference

Lieber: I see. Okay, so here's the thing. Here's the thing. The, we have been trying as New Yorkers for a generation. I was a kid in the City Hall in the Koch administration. We've been trying to get trucks to do more deliveries at night, and there's a huge discount at night, and we are very hopeful that trucks are going to take advantage of that. And, you know, like I say, take advantage of 75% discount because they have such an impact on traffic. They're relatively small piece of the traffic makeup, but they have a huge impact on how fast things are, because they take so much space.

Lehrer: That is another thing that has people ambivalent, though, right? Like, do I really want these trucks with their engines whirring and everything coming to my building on my house at three o'clock in the morning?

Lieber: Most of those deliveries are made to commercial districts and we're pretty good in New York, New York, at enforcing, you know, you can enforce late night noise laws. So, I think that everybody has been wanting to get the trucks into off-hour deliveries for literally a generation or two. This is I believe going to be helpful in that.

Lehrer: Here's an interesting question from a listener text message. It says, I'm kind of bewildered as to why so many people are allegedly changing their habits over $9. A round-trip subway ride is about $6. So, in a way, it's really only a $3 difference per day, if we take that math.

Lieber: Yeah, but there's a lot of other costs. I mean driving is as I said, it's parking, it's gas, it's the cost of the vehicle itself. One of the great things about New York is a lot of New Yorkers, especially Manhattan, live without owning a car. And if mass transit is great, and you rely on it, and you have to in your family has one car instead of two, that saves you, you know, tens of thousands of dollars. I mean, 10,000-plus dollars a year. So, there's real value to having a transit-oriented society. We already have that. We have 90% of people who come to Midtown and Downtown to work are taking mass transit. Brian, one of the challenges of this is everybody's talking about the drivers all the time. You know how many people drive there? A million and a half jobs in Midtown and Lower Manhattan, in the Central Business District. You know how many people drive to those jobs? Less than 140,000. So, we tend to be focused on them, and not talking about what's happening for the transit folks. Transit folks, the transit users are getting better transit out of that. In addition to cleaner air, less traffic and safer streets, we get better transit, which is to the benefit of 90+% of our commuters. And, you know, in an hour or so I'm going to be, I'm going to be doing an event in Jamaica where we are actually, announcing the purchase of electric vehicles to go to one of the most bus-dependent neighborhoods in the entire city. And, you know, they're going to get not just new buses, they're going to get electric buses to help clear the air. So, we're, you know, let's not forget about the benefits for the 90% when we're talking about this.

Lehrer: Yeah. So, one of the consistent complaints I hear is that if this is supposed to improve mass transit, you should have done more of that first. I know there's a chicken-and-egg issue here, because you need the money to do the improvements. But people moving on to more crowded trains and buses would have a better experience. Maybe now the drivers who remain, are having a better experience on these less-crowded roads, while more people are jamming onto the buses and the trains. Have you heard that about couldn't you do more of this first?

Lieber: First of all, the idea that the trains and the buses are jammed is just not accurate. Remember, we're talking about 130,000 people. We carry on the mass transit system of the MTA, between six and 7 million people a day. We are only about 80% in terms of ridership, of where we were pre-COVID, so we have plenty of room for-- If anybody wants to get out of their car because of congestion pricing can take transit. We got plenty of room. So, I just want to be really clear about that. But what we did was we pre-invested in improved transit. We got the subway service from where it was. We have better subway service than we had in 10 years. We've expanded the service levels on 11 lines, and part of that was we did it to a great extent, nights and weekends and off peak. Because that was where the comeback after COVID was. We have the best, today, literally, we are announcing that we had the best Long Island Rail Road service ever, ever in 2024, with the exception of the COVID year when nobody was riding, we had 5% of our usual ridership. So, you're talking about, we pre-invested in better mass transit. We didn't just, you know, wait for this to happen. But we are actually now, adding express bus service. We're adding additional bus service. We've redesigned the Queens bus system, and are adding service there, all through the borough. We're getting the investments done.

Lehrer: MTA Chair Janno Lieber is our guest on Day 6 of congestion pricing. Listener texts, I'm not hearing boo about your impact on the suburbs. So, let's take a call from Ed in Hoboken, who I think is going to say boo about that. Hi, Ed.

Caller, Ed in Hoboken: Hi, Brian. I'm actually a big fan of mass transit, so I'm not going to say boo. But this is painful, though. So, my girlfriend lives in Floral Park, Long Island, right. And so, I live between the Lincoln and the Holland Tunnels. And if I continue to go over there, the same way I normally do, which is through Lincoln, through the Queens-Midtown, which is $38 now, which is, you know, very high. But if I continue to do that, it'll go up to $56 and that's just obnoxious. You know, I mean, that's, if you think about it, the $18 you know, $9, that's round trip, by the way. So, $9 both ways, that's $18. That's more than the cost of my E-ZPass just to go in. Because I only get charged E-ZPass one way. And then I have a few other-- I don't know if you want to comment on that, but I have a few other points too.

Lieber: Sure, you're smart guy, but your math is slightly off. You only get charged once a day. So, if you and you know, I don't know what your -

Caller, Ed in Hoboken: Sure, if I go over there on Saturday and come back on Sunday, that's two days. And that's what I'm hoping.

Lieber: Yeah, that's all right. Well, I shouldn't make any assumptions about your arrangements with your girlfriend, definitely. But here's the bottom line is, you live in Jersey. And I totally get everybody's going to have an individual thing. But the bottom line is, in New Jersey, I think you had Governor Murphy on recently.

Lehrer: Yes, and I'm going to play a clip in a couple of minutes.

Lieber: In New Jersey, they raised, you know, they're only talking about the 30,000 New Jerseyites who are impacted by the congestion pricing fee, whereas they raised the gas tax by 6%, they raised the tolls on the Garden State Parkway, on the Turnpike, the PA tolls, that's going to affect most of the 9 million people in New Jersey. And Murphy's only been talking about 30,000 people who are impacted. I don't mean to be in any way, dismissive of the personal impact it has to you, Bob. And you know, I'm totally open to going over it and figuring out how, you know, how we could deal with your situation. But why is New Jersey only talking about 30,000 people and raising tolls on, you know, millions of people? And distracting, it's like they're waving around to distract attention from what they're doing. Governor Toll Hike, I mean, Governor Murphy, is by focusing only on congestion pricing, has really misled New Jerseyites. And you said you're a mass transit supporter. What has Murphy done for mass transit? This is a governor who promised fixing NJT if it killed him. And as I said, before you know, he ain't dying, and I'm not even sure he's trying. Because New Jersey Transit has been a wreck. And so, we really object in New York to hearing about this, you know, all the time about congestion pricing, when looking after New Jerseyites would focus in on NJT improvements.

Lehrer: Wow. Governor Toll Hike. Burn. Ed, you had another thing, too?  Real quick, though, so we can get other people on.

Caller, Ed in Hoboken: Yeah. So, yeah, I live between the two tunnels, and you know, if I don't want to get those tolls, and I can't use them, which forces me to take the New Jersey Turnpike up to the George Washington and go across the Cross Bronx, right. Which I'm dreading, you know, because everybody's going to be doing that. So I'm expecting that traffic the next time I do that to be really bad. And, you know, and I also understand too, that the West Side Highway and the FDR are free, but you can't get to them without getting a $9 charge, because there's, you know, if you hit any street inside of Manhattan, you get charged. Am I correct?

Lehrer: You can't get off them.

Lieber: One clarification. You come through the Holland or the Lincoln, you get a $3 credit. So, it's a $6 impact per day for you. That's the that's the impact. I know that that's not welcome, but I just want to be clear on the number.

Lehrer: Ed, thank you for your call. And on the math, there's one misconception, that maybe it's worth clearing up again. You mentioned this before, but like, here's another text from a listener that's about taking their kid to doctor's appointments in the city and saying it'll be $18 extra because they come in twice. But you only pay the $9 charge once per day. Once you've come in that day, if you go in and out and in and out and in and out, you don't get charged extra times. Correct?

Lieber: Correct.

Lehrer: So, I thought that was important just to restate so people at least know what math we're actually talking about. We're going to take a break and continue with Janno Lieber. We're going to play a clip of Governor Toll Hike as he called him and move on from there. Stay with us.

(Commercial break)

Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC with MTA Chair and CEO Janno Lieber on Day 6 of the congestion pricing toll. 212-433-WNYC, as he takes your calls and texts. To clarify something that I just said and you agreed with before the break about drivers only being charged once per day, I'm being reminded that there are some exceptions for certain kinds of trucks. Pickup trucks with modified beds, I'm reading this now, pickup trucks with caps that go above the roofline or extend over the sides of the bed, vans that have been modified behind the driver's cab, whatever that means. Multi-unit trucks, including articulated trucks, where a power unit is carrying one or more trailers. That's per an NBC New York article. So just to be fair and transparent and thorough about who, that some people, these trucks do get charged multiple times a day.

Lieber: Brian, there's was a policy, and you remember that all the tolling structure was recommended to us by an independent board of experts. Trucks contribute much, much more to congestion. And they are also, you know, they benefit disproportionately, because they're commercial in nature, from improvements to the travel times. So, the idea is the trucks are definitely charged a little bit more, and they're strongly incentivized to come at night, as we discussed earlier. So, there, it is not, we're not picking on particular vehicles. We're not saying it's a Dodge Ram versus a Ford 150 or anything like that. It's all about having the trucks, the commercial trucks that carry stuff, be incentivized to come at night, which everybody's been trying to accomplish for a generation.

Lehrer: Alright. Let me play a clip from our monthly Ask Governor Murphy call-in, which we had on Wednesday night. You know, he's a big opponent of congestion pricing. And I want you to respond to the specific issue that he raises here:

Clip of New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy: We believe in climate change. We do a lot to push up against it. But unfortunately, and the federal judge said this is a very flawed program, but still let it go ahead. This is going to take it out of the hide of our commuters, and it's going to displace the pollution from Manhattan to New Jersey.

Lehrer: So specifically, about displacing the pollution potentially from Manhattan to New Jersey. And we hear this from places in New York, just out the outside the congestion zone, too. More people are going to drive to there and do park-and-ride from above 60th street, or, you know, the Bronx, reroute trucks through the already disproportionately air polluted Cross Bronx Expressway, all of that. Your response?

Lieber: Listen, it's nonsense. Because the reason the federal government was able to approve this 4,000-page study that took years, was among other things, that they found that there was no exceedance of the national air quality standards taking place. Where there, and there were in New Jersey, I only identified seven census tracts, that had a combination of more truck traffic and some history, you know, that made them environmental justice communities. Only seven census tracts that required any kind of mitigation. We're doing mitigation in the areas where there are impacts that are recognized by the federal government. So there, you know, whenever you do things that affect traffic, there are little blips in the whole system. There's no question. But the federal government found again and again, air quality region wide, much better, no exceedance of the national air quality standards. And no what they call adverse impacts, that rose to the level of requiring us to stop, to reconsider doing this. So that's the federal government. Murphy's always talking about how he believes in environmental improvement. The best thing that could be done for environmental improvement in New Jersey is really fixing New Jersey Transit. Which, has, it's no secret, has fallen apart in the last couple of years. You know why? Because they didn't make the State of Good Repair investments that we're making at the MTA. You know, we've gone since I was a kid in New York, from trains that broke down every 5,000 miles to trains are breaking down 150,000 to 200,000 miles. We fixed all, where, we fixed all the track. Now we want to invest in the power. That's what's killing New Jersey. We want to invest in the power and we're finding the money to do it. So, we're making those investments to have a great mass transit system. Our friends in New Jersey ought to consider doing the same.

Lehrer: Where are some of the biggest places that people will see mass transit improvement first? Because again, we should remind people that this isn't for operating expenses, at least not in theory. It's for capital improvements. So, what can you say that people will see, when?

Lieber: Yeah. I mean, listen, the thing that people are seeing most often right now is us making all these stations - here we have 100-year-old system that was not built for wheelchairs. ADA didn't exist. So, we're making all the MTA subway stations, there are 472 of them, ADA-compliant. What does that mean? It means you have elevators or ramps, so that parents with strollers, somebody in a wheelchair, somebody with a disability, and even just regular old seniors who don't do stairs anymore can use the system. That's happening again and again and again every week, as you know, we're rolling that out. But we're investing in new train cars. Those are coming online very, very quickly. We're investing in some more as a result of congestion pricing. Electric buses. And, Brian, you know, a lot of it is the unsexy stuff that makes the system work better. You know, we have all this infrastructure, tracks, signal, power that was put in when Franklin Roosevelt was the president, and we got to replace all that. My predecessors did a lot of great things to try to bring the subway system back from what you and I remember was the graffiti-scarred catastrophe of the 70s and 80s, but they didn't get to everything, and we have to keep investing in this great system, which is really old, if it's gonna keep getting better.

Lehrer: Speaking of vandalism, there was a City Council member from Queens last week who posted on social media a way that people can get a device that would disable the toll reading cameras. Should she be prosecuted?

Lieber: No. But I mean, listen, it's unfortunate that an elected official, especially one from, you know, the part of our political ecosystem that talks law and order a lot, to be talking about - ha ha, this is how you break the camera. That's not right. But prosecution, no. But what I do want to talk about is that the way that in this dialog, there's crept in justification for a lot of law-breaking type behavior: covering your license plate. You know, covered plates are not just a jokey way of avoiding a toll. That's creating, you know, an environment of illegality in New York. The mayor has said that, you know, 80% of these covered plates and these ghost plates are being used in crime. When you don't know who's in what car, you can't do an investigation of a crime that takes place. So, I just hope that the people, whatever they think of congestion pricing, stop, you know, saying things that, in effect, encourage people to engage in lawless behavior. These are some of the same people who yell about fare evasion; they shouldn't be encouraging toll evasion, especially, you know, considering it's generally people with cars who are a little bit better off.

Lehrer: And they yell about illegal border crossings. Well, this is an illegal border crossing, too, if you cover up your license plate.

Lieber: Well, it's a more poetic way of putting it.

Lehrer: Gregory in the Bronx wants to raise another issue. Gregory, you're on WNYC with MTA Chair Janno Lieber. Hello.

Caller, Gregory in the Bronx: Yes. Thank you. Good morning, gentlemen. Yes, Chairman Lieber, I wanted to address the concern. I am from the Bronx, and the Bronx has the unfortunate distinction of being out of over 3,244 counties in the United States, for decades, has been No. 1 in the rate of child asthma. The last time, well, a few months ago, when you were on, Chairman Lieber, and you discussed this, you were very dismissive in saying, your only response was, that we're going to have clinics for that. As if, somehow, clinics are going to ameliorate the already high rates being, of childhood asthma, being exacerbated. Brian, a few weeks ago, a week or two ago, you were discussing the impact of Robert Wagner, his policies on people of color in the Bronx.

Lehrer: Robert Moses. Robert Moses.

Caller, Gregory in the Bronx: Robert Moses, I'm sorry. Robert Wagner is another one. Robert Moses and his impact on the people of color in the Bronx. And you lambasted him, properly, for what turns, what has been clearly racist impact upon the people here. You've been notably quiet upon the impact that that the increase in the pollution here on the Bronx is going to have on our children.

Lehrer: Well, I think I just raised it with him about three minutes ago. But, Gregory, you also told our screener you wanted to say something about crime, or did we get that wrong?

Caller, Gregory in the Bronx: Yes, that too. But one quick thing more about this, the childhood asthma. The Americans with Disabilities Act is an extremely powerful tool. And, in the same way that Robert Moses was very dismissive about the protests against his policies, I noticed that Chairman Lieber has been dismissive about the lawsuits. My hope is that the UFT will align themselves with the, we don't have very good representation here in the Bronx, but for the representatives of those children will use the very powerful American with Disabilities Act in his lawsuits.

Lehrer: Thank you.

Caller, Gregory in the Bronx: About crime, that's another thing which Chairman Lieber's been very dismissive about. Not just, I'm not the only one who says that. The transit workers union says that. He made the comment earlier this week that crime is in our heads. Brian, you, too, like to make it out to seem that crime is not real. The degree to which it is in the streets and the subways is not as real. It's more a question of perception. Every time the subject comes up, you always seem to, honestly, I believe, you're insulting our intelligence when you say that it's a matter of perception. It's not a reality. There's plenty of crime that's not reported. There's plenty of crime that's being, it's not being included in statistics because of things like discovery reform, and police are not making arrests.

Lehrer: Gregory, I have to, I have to cut you off there. Forgive me. And we're gonna address your issues. Just that, Chairman Lieber is gonna run out of time with us in about three minutes.

Caller, Gregory in the Bronx: Okay.

Lehrer: So, I want to make sure we... But I do want to also say that we did a segment just this week on how Mayor Adams says crime is more of a perception problem than a real problem on the subways. But we talked about how there was a marked increase in 2024 in both murders and felony assaults on the subways, although crime, overall, counting all the other things, is going down. So, I hope we're presenting the complexity of the picture. But Chairman Lieber -- to his two concerns.

Lieber: OK, so, listen, this idea that I'm being or anyone else with the MTA is being dismissive about crime, Gregory, it's just not accurate. There's no question that there's one tabloid newspaper that has decided that that's how they want to portray us in this moment of congestion pricing. You know, they, actually put in quotes on the front page, words I never said. So, I understand that there's a campaign going on to try to make it look like the MTA doesn't care about crime. I have been really clear about a lot of things. One is, the one thing that makes our riders feel safe - and is across demographics, across neighborhoods, ethnicity, and income levels -- is more cops. And I have been agitating for more cops since day one. So, we want cops, and we welcome that. No. 2, we want the criminal justice system to be more, however they want to do it, I'm not the criminal justice expert, to be more effective in dealing with recidivist subway criminals. And it's not just people who commit felony assaults or other violent crime. There's a pattern of people, there's a small group of people, who commit, you know, misdemeanor offenses of all kinds, again and again. We have the top 50 of those people in the last two years have committed, on average, 90, they have 95 arrests. We need the criminal justice system to get those people out of the public space and into whatever they need, whether it's incarceration, or treatment, or a mental health hospital, but we cannot have that. I've been really clear that crime is an issue, and it's a real issue, and it's an issue of perception. Why? Because not only do our riders have to be safe, they have to feel safe. They have to feel when they walk into the subway that it's not a place of lawlessness and disorder. So, when I talk about perception, when I talk about the feeling of safety, it's not to dismiss crime. To the contrary. It's to emphasize that even things that don't in some people's minds deserve an arrest, or they want to put up with it, make people feel uncomfortable, you see someone smoking, using drugs. So, perception matters, because people have to feel safe in the public space. The subway is a special version of that. That's No. 1.

Lehrer: I have said, to Gregory's point about me, I have said that it is statistically much safer to ride the subway on any given day than to be a passenger or a driver in a car. And that is true. And I've said that I personally feel much safer in general when I'm riding the subway than when I'm a driver or a passenger in a car. But go ahead and finish your thought, Chairman.

Lieber: So anyway, and subway crime is one and a half percent of overall New York City crime, but it gets 81% and a half percent of the coverage. Why? For a good reason. Because everybody says when something terrible happens, and there have been some bad ones recently, really terrible things, they said that could have been me, because they ride the subway. So, it has to feel safe, and it has to be safe. So, let's just be clear about that. No. 2, Bronx. There, you know, the Bronx there has been, as a result of the analysis that was done, significant commitments to invest in improving air quality in the Bronx to more than offset any potential impact for more trucks going through the Bronx. The most important of those investments is to get rid of these diesel-powered refrigeration units in the Hunts Point Market, which are murderous for air quality in the South Bronx. When you talk about asthma, those diesel refrigeration units, which are spewing out emissions every day, all day, are a killer, and we're paying to get rid of more than a hundred of them, and that's gonna have benefit. We are putting in air filters in schools. We are investing in an asthma center because the Bronx has always had a problem with asthma because of air quality issues. And we're investing in parks and other natural antidotes to air pollution. So, we're making the big investments that more than offset any hypothetical impact from truck traffic in the Bronx that's a result of congestion pricing. But I love having callers who are as educated on the details as Gregory. So, thank you.

Lehrer: Absolutely, keep calling us, Gregory. I know we're at the end of our scheduled time. Do you have time for one more follow up?

Lieber: Yes.

Lehrer: This is a clip that I'd like your reaction to. It's Andrew Ansbro, head of the firefighters' union in the city. The caller Gregory said he hopes the teachers' union allies with him. People may not know the teachers' union was among those suing to stop congestion pricing, and here's the head of the firefighters' union warning that response times might suffer because firefighters will stop using their private cars on the job in the ways they have so far. Here he is:

Clip from Andrew Ansbro: All we were asking for was an exemption from members bringing their vehicles into the zone. Those vehicles are regularly used to transport firefighters to and from their detail to another firehouse, and there's a shortage in one spot, and they need them somewhere else. We were denied at every turn. We have been putting ourselves out there for the City of New York and for the FDNY and now a lot of our members have asked us, how do we get our money back for this unfair tax burden that's been placed on not only them, but every resident of New York City?

Lehrer: So, is that worth a specific public safety exemption for the firefighters? And anything else you want to say as we come to the end of our time?

Lieber: Listen, there were 130 different requests for exemptions made to the third-party expert board that recommended the tolls. And their view was, we're going to have a discount for low-income people, we're going to have an exemption for people with disabilities, full exemption. Everybody else, because there are a lot of different situations, most of them, you ought to be dealing with your employer. If the firefighters, and some of this is legit, are being told to drive in rather than take mass transit, and then are told that they have to use their personal cars to move around on the job -- that's just like when your employer says take a business trip to Albany or White Plains, use your own car, and the employer has got to pay you for that use of your car, a mileage charge, pay for your gas, whatever. So, if the firefighters are being subjected to that, we already, in their union contract, they already are paid for the time when they move between fire houses. I know that's the case. It's in their contract. If they also have to be compensated for the use of their own car in that time, that seems fair to me. But the MTA is not the right place to adjudicate these specifics of individual contractual arrangements. Who uses what car when, and what employers' instigation, that's not our job. That ought to be in collective bargaining agreement, and I respect their concern.

Lehrer: Well, I will say that some public officials do come on when things are hot, like you. Some do not. So, we really appreciate your accessibility and taking so many listener calls and texts as well as answer questions from me. MTA Chair Janno Lieber, thank you very much.

Lieber: You bet. Thank you, Brian.