TRANSCRIPT: MTA Chair and CEO Lieber Appears on The Point with Marcia Kramer

Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) Chair and CEO Janno Lieber appeared on CBS-2's The Point with Marcia Kramer to discuss transportation-related topics.

A transcript of the interview appears below.

Marcia Kramer: MTA Chair Janno Lieber has either the best job in the world or the worst job depending on the weather and whether the trains are running on time. So the reason I start with this is because as I was coming to work, a friend of mine called to complain that the trains were late coming from Queens and wanted to know when are you going to weatherproof the subway system so that it doesn't respond to rain, heat, cold, and other things that make the signals slow down?

MTA Chair and CEO Janno Lieber: Hey, listen, I'm not a magician, but all I can tell you is we've been making the investments that give us a better chance of dealing with those kinds of conditions. And service has improved. It's not - God knows it ain't perfect and every day is a battle, and the folks who run the system on - in many cases, on old technology are doing a good job. But we have upgraded the signals, we are investing finally in all that stuff that breaks down, that sometimes some of it came from a 100 years ago, like the power, and the structures, and the signals. We're giving people a shot at a better commute, and it's delivered.

Kramer: Well, you know, I feel like I have to bring up the Fast Forward plan that had originally come about because Andy Byford "Train Daddy" in 2018 where he said we're going to fix most of the signals in 10 years. Where are we on that?

Lieber: Yeah, listen, Andy's plan, I think, was very aspirational, I would say. There's no way to fix the entire signal system in, you know, in an overnight time frame-

Kramer: Especially with an old system.

Lieber: Yeah, with an old system, and you got to keep the system running. You can't just turn it off, which is different about New York. We run 24/7 365, so you can't just turn the thing off and redo it, which is what they've done in many parts of the world. But in the lines where we have redone the signals, line, train, Queens Boulevard line, all of a sudden you see dramatic improvements in on-time performance and in throughput.

Marcia, as you know, this weekend we are switching the and the , two lines where - you came to this last week, the press conference on this - two lines where because of the crossing maneuvers that our ancestors in transit left us, all of a sudden it holds up throughput, it causes lots of delays. We're switching the lines, riders are going to get a more reliable commute-

Kramer: So what we're talking about is the and the that are going to switch. But as I was sitting at that press conference, I was saying to myself, why did they do the original plan to begin with? Like, why were they having the lines switch and how did it take so long to get them to not switch?

Lieber: Well, so much of our system is the result of the fact that these things were built 100 years ago, in many cases, and also there were three separate subway systems that all got combined and making them truly one system has taken a long time. Now, the benefit of the and switch is people on the stations that are near and close to Manhattan are now faced with trying to get on a train that is full when it pulls into their station. They're going to get much less crowded trains and the folks in Queens, many of whom live in NYCHA housing, are going to have better access to shopping in Queens, that is, you know, they don't want to go to Bloomingdale's which is where their train goes now.

Kramer: So because of the change in the stops?

Lieber: Yeah, and because we're eliminating the crossing maneuvers that actually cause trains to have to sit in station while another one crosses in front of them. This is long overdue. We're the guys who are finally making some of the changes that, you know, frankly, I do think you're right, probably are a little overdue.

Kramer: So, you know, a lot of people, when you have change, they say we don't like change. So, are you getting any resistance, any pushback from your riders?

Lieber: There's always somebody whose commute is going to be changed, you know, you can go out on a platform and find somebody. Nobody, nobody likes --

Kramer: Everybody likes to hate the MTA.

Lieber: Well, and also there's just changes - listen, commuting is part of our routine and changing it has impact, but if it's going to save time for everybody, give everybody more reliable service and allow us to run more service, what we've been doing. People don't like change, but congestion pricing, you talked to me about it 100 times, huge success. We've brought back ridership, everybody gave up on New York and Midtown and 'no one's coming back,' and all of a sudden, this past week we had two days in a row of the highest ridership since COVID. We've had the best service. Safety, the Police Commissioner announced it, best November in the history of the system in terms of low crime, much lower crime. We have made some huge progress, and I got to say I've had the support of Governor Hochul at every step to both grow service and make it better, that's made a difference.

Kramer: So, we have to talk about the elephant in the room or the elephant on the system, which is pushed by the new Mayor-elect to have free bus services, which is not something you're a big fan of. Why not?

Lieber: No, listen, what I'm trying to get people to hear is the number one response I had to the mayoral election is, number one, I'm thrilled that transit was a huge piece of the discussion. Number two, I am thrilled that joining super pro-transit governor, Governor Hochul in Albany, will be a very pro-transit mayor who grew up riding the system and has talked about making transit better. That's where I start the discussion with the new mayor and his team. Thrilled that we have so much positivity about transit. This is a guy who actually knows the system.

Now, are we going to have to work out some mechanics of what we all want to do to make the system better and more affordable? Yes, but you've got to lean into the fact that, you know, we've got a mayor now who really digs the MTA mass transit system and is committed to making it better.

Kramer: So what are the problems that you see with the idea of free buses, like what would, what kind of problems would that put on the system?

Lieber: Well, look, what I've said, and I'm not - there's no point going into it again and again is, you know, my own view is something of that scale probably needs to be studied a lot. We studied congestion pricing for 5 years. We ought to study this. We, at the MTA, are committed to affordability. Look at what we've done. We have kept fare increases down to two percent a year when inflation was much higher. We have dramatically cut the cost of riding Metro-North and Long Island Rail Road, the commuter railroads, inside the city and have attracted all kinds of new riders to those railroads and they're cutting - they're saving time, and we've kept the Long Island Rail Road and Metro-North monthly tickets cheaper than they were before COVID. So, we're committed to affordability, and I know that this new mayor obviously is committed to affordability, and we're going to have to work out ideas of how to accomplish it.

Kramer: But you've also talked about the idea of making things more affordable by making an income-based fare system. We have something like that now with the Fair Fares program, but right now people who apply for the Fair Fares have to get, have to make a family of four has to earn $46,000 or less, and they get a 50 percent cutback. Is there any way to include more people in the Fair Fare program?

Lieber: It's a great idea. It's something the Governor has talked about is one idea for addressing affordability that she really is high on, it's something that we've been pushing for some years now. The City runs that Fair Fares program. They have kept the eligibility so low that a person who is working 40 hours a week on minimum wage doesn't qualify, their income is too high. It's time to make sure that people who are what we call the working poor, who are really working their tails off to make ends meet, playing by the rules and all that, that they get to get this benefit. So, raising the income threshold for eligibility on Fair Fares, that's exactly something that we think we ought to do.

Kramer: Do you have a number you're thinking about, about how much you would --

Lieber: People have talked about moving it - it's now at 150 percent of the federal poverty level which is way too low to be applicable to New York. People talked about moving it up to, you know, 200 percent of the federal poverty level, you know, to include more people in that. We think that's an interesting idea and one of the points that I think in favor of that approach is it would benefit people who ride the subway as well as the bus who need the help but not depending on whether they're choosing one mode or another.

Kramer: So what about the idea, some of the things I talked, I thought about is this. You know, you always go to the business community and ask them to pay a mobility tax or this tax or that tax. What about the idea of certain businesses paying the subway fare for their employees, 5 days a week?

Lieber: Yeah, and you know --

Kramer: Is that an idea that Albany would ever think about?

Lieber: This is kind of - that honestly, Marcia, that's kind of what happened in the last couple of years. When we came out of COVID, like many transit systems in the United States, we had ridership that dipped and the revenue was in the toilet, right? So we had to say 'what do we do?' Hochul said to me, I want to keep service going because I have talked to the businesses, she had talked to the business community and I had spoken to them as well and they wanted really strong everyday service so they could get their people to come back to work and when Hochul put together the budget deal that enabled the MTA to keep, stay in good financial condition and continue to run more service, the business community went along with the idea of a little bit more payroll tax. That's how they decided to contribute to maintaining the subway system and it's made a difference. We've never had a business community that's more supportive of transit than we have now.

Kramer: But what about a plan they say to you or say to me, 'Marcia, if you're going to commute 5 days a week, here's what we're going to give you a little extra in your paycheck to pay for the, you know, the 10 rides.'

Lieber: It's an idea. Listen, some, a lot of companies, I think your viewers know, a lot of companies provide these pre-tax benefits that are, that are under federal law that come from your employer. So I think that a lot of employers are trying to do something along the lines of what you're saying. Let me tell you, the pre-tax benefit is now applicable on OMNY. You can use your transit benefits to get the ride in the new system. It's a big thing that's coming up is that we're saying goodbye to the MetroCard, we're going all in on OMNY. Another huge success story for the MTA: we're 92 percent accepted use of Tap and Ride. We never thought we were going to be this far along.

Kramer: We're going to talk about that a little bit later, we're going to have to leave it there for now, but we'll be right back.

[…]

Kramer: We are back with MTA Chair Janno Lieber. So, my personal favorite question has to do with fare evasion and the fact that the MTA is now considering what you call the European model where you're going to have teams of civilians who are going to be with, I guess you call it handheld something?

Lieber: Validators.

Kramer: Validators. So, tell me about it. I mean, how are you going to crack down? How can, how does this make a dent in the almost $1 billion or so that the Citizens Budget Commission estimates you lose from fare evasion?

Lieber: So, here's the bottom line, first thing you got to know is: we took on fare evasion aggressively about six months ago when I got this job. People were rolling their eyes at me when I started to talk about it. I think it's a serious issue because it's not just about the money, it's about that sense of fairness and equity in New York where people feel like, why does that guy go on for free? I'm being a sucker, I'm being ripped off, and that's a fair response. It's about how do we all share the public space and play by the rules in this city together because that's the only way it works. But we have made progress on fare evasion. Subway fare evasion down 35% based on all the stuff we've been doing, both the physical turnstiles and how we're changing them, also having gate guards and a ton of other stuff. But, on the buses it's tough because I can't, we don't have the same ability to have, you know, enforcement in every place and the technology is very different. So what we want to do is to have what they have as you say in Europe. I say European style fare evasion, people think I'm having Frenchmen running around with baguettes and smoking cigarettes in the buses.

Kramer: Which is not a bad idea!

Lieber: That's not it, it's just that the European system of fare enforcement is that civilians, not cops, who have technology that allows them to validate that you pay, you show them your OMNY card or your credit card or your phone, however you paid, and if you don't, they give you a ticket on the spot, it's that simple. And now we're able to do that with the full tap and go system that we're implementing starting at the beginning of this coming year 2026. It's real simple. We're going to make it so that people have, you know, have that expectation when they get on a bus if they don't pay, somebody might come up to them and say, show me your phone, show me how you paid. And if not, give them a ticket right there. That is the way to go.

Kramer: But how do you make, there are some people that are constantly jumping the turnstile, constantly getting on a bus and not paying. How do you convince these constant fare evaders that this is a serious thing they can't do?

Lieber: Yeah, listen, I made it clear, I do wish the criminal justice system would take it seriously. I'm not interested in a kid who fare evades you know once because he forgot his OMNY card, I mean you shouldn't do it, but I'm really interested in what you talked about, which is people who are just constant recidivist fare evaders. A lot of those people are actually criminals in other walks of life when we do enforcement with cops. A lot of fare evasion enforcement yields people who have warrants for other more serious crimes including guns, and we pick up a lot of guns and weapons with the fare evasion enforcement. So, what we want to do is to make sure that the criminal justice system starts to treat people who are what we call recidivists, they do it all the time, as a serious infraction. We give people a ticket for the 1st or 2nd or whatever, but if you do it 10 times, let alone if you're holding the gate open and collecting money like some of these scam artists do, or you're breaking the machines and then forcing people to pay you to get in the system, that's what I want the criminal justice system to enforce on.

Kramer: Do you think that the DAs are willing to do that? Or do you think fare evasion is too small a crime for them?

Lieber: Some of them have been willing to work with us on that. We've seen some progress. Listen, you know, it's not a secret that, you know, 5, 10 years ago, there was a DA in Manhattan who announced that fare evasion was no longer enforceable and everybody heard it and it started causing the numbers to soar. We want to get back to the time when people who played by the rules in all the other areas of their lives, who are not thieves, didn't even think of fair evading, that's where we need to go.

Kramer: So the MTA is about to get a huge infusion of cash because once the casino licenses are fully awarded at the end of the month, each of the casinos has to pay the MTA $500 million, which is the three licenses, is $1.5 billion plus you get the lion's share of the tax revenue once the casinos are up and running. What are you going to do with that windfall? Does that mean that the fares are going to go down?

Lieber: No, this isn't some big surprise or windfall. This was the centerpiece of Governor Hochul's plan to make sure that we could keep running great service and a lot of service on the subways and buses and commuter rails after COVID. She came up with a plan. It's just being realized now because finally they've made the selections and have done the process, of making the selections about the casinos. So this is not a surprise. We were always counting on this money.

Kramer: So it's in the budget.

Lieber: It's in the budget and it's counted for --

Kramer: Is it capital or operating?

Lieber: It's operating, it's what's allowed us to keep running service. The rest of transit in America, Chicago, Philadelphia, all over the country is struggling economically. They're cutting service. They're raising fares by 20+% in many cases. In New York, because of, you know, because of the governor's leadership and because we have a pro-transit Albany, we were able to bring transit back successfully.

Kramer: So does this money go to wages and things like that --

Lieber: Yeah --

Kramer: Or is it going to make the signals, you know --

Lieber: No, 70% of our operating budget goes to pay people who work in the system. That's their wages, their pensions, and their healthcare and so on. That's the lion's share of our operating budget. But you need those people if you want to run more trains than we used to, and we're doing that, and that's what Hochul has done for us.

Kramer: So every year, come starting in January, you make the trek to Albany to ask the legislature for more money or more things. What's the ask this year?

Lieber: You know what, it is an interesting year because we don't have a big financial ask of the legislature because --

Kramer: Really?

Lieber: No, the operating budget, again, I said the governor put together a successful plan to make sure the MTA had a stable budget back in 2023. You mentioned some of the money that was part of that, the casino license money. And last year we got the legislature under her leadership to announce, to approve a new $68 billion capital budget so we can fix all the stuff that's been breaking down for 100 years. We are now moving forward. The big things for us this year are the OMNY, the final transition to tap and go, and we obviously need to continue working on a plan to make the bus system better and I'm thrilled that this new mayor has, you know, let everybody know that he's going to do the bus lanes and the bus cameras.

Kramer: You want more bus lanes, I can tell you that.

Lieber: Oh yeah, and you know it's the law --

Kramer: Drivers don't like that, you know.

Lieber: You know, it's the law of the City of New York that there are supposed to be a lot more bus lanes, bus camera enforcement and all the things that could help us make buses run much faster and it was not observed by the current outgoing administration. The new administration says they're going to do it. I'm thrilled, let's make the buses run.

Kramer: How many bus lanes are you looking for?

Lieber: I think that it's, it's like 20 plus that were supposed to be done this year. I think somewhere in the 20 plus new bus lanes and it didn't happen, so we got a lot of catching up to do and, and we're counting on the new administration to get it started.

Kramer: So that leads to a question about congestion pricing and congestion because a lot of people argue, although you say it's been successful, if you have to drive around the city, it's pretty difficult to get around these days because the streets are congested.

Lieber: Yeah, this is, look, you have to look at it compared to where it was this time of year or you know traditionally in December, early December, yeah, it's no secret in the holiday time New York traffic goes crazy, it is, it is demonstrably better than it was in the past and better than it would have been but for congestion pricing. But here's the story of congestion pricing, everybody said, 'oh, everything's going to go wrong, everything's going to hurt business, it's going to hurt air quality, it's going to hurt hurt hurt' and lo and behold, none of those bad things have happened. We've reduced the traffic. Traffic speeds are faster, people are getting in through the Holland Tunnel saving 20 to 30 minutes a day. That's great for drivers as well as bus riders, so everybody has benefited from this. And you know who seems to be pretty happy more than anybody expected? The drivers because they're saving so much time.

Kramer: And yet the Trump Administration is still trying to stop you and it's still asking a judge to throw it out.

Lieber: Yeah, you know --

Kramer: What's going on with that?

Lieber: This lawsuit has been, you know, in process for --

Kramer: Forever

Lieber: Well, there have been a lot of lawsuits in process, and we've won every time. So I'm really optimistic that the remaining lawsuits are going to be resolved in our favor. By the way, the judge in the main lawsuit which is -

Kramer: Judge Liman

Lieber: ..in the Southern District of New York, Judge Liman, put an injunction on the Trump Administration that they should stop from trying to punish New York for doing congestion pricing. And you know I think they've observed that. There's a new lawsuit in New Jersey which was coordinated with some, you know, what appeared to be some, some Trump advocates and Trump activist types but we'll see what happens. But I'm very confident on the legal side we're going to be in good shape.

Kramer: So what's the most important change you could make in the MTA that would, tomorrow, or the next day improve ridership dramatically or make, make your riders happy dramatically?

Lieber: So what the riders tell us all the time is they need to know that there's going to be a lot of service, it's going to be reliable, and it's going to be safe and feel safe - and those are the three things that I focus on every day and the team focuses on every day: are we providing a lot more service and is it reliable? We always got progress to be made there and does it feel safe? The fact that crime has gone down so much that we had the best month, I think a couple of months in a row, is a huge boost. Rider confidence in the feeling of safety on the subway system has gone up 14% points in the last year. So, we are making progress. Great NYPD work, got to credit them. And you know obviously they have made the police more visible and more effective and it's making a difference in the riders' minds.

Kramer: So since we also have suburban viewers here, there are reports that there's negotiations with several unions at the Long Island Rail Road. How worried are you that this could end in a strike?

Lieber: I am worried, and here's why: because these unions, listen, I'm pro-union, every job I've worked in, I've worked with unions. But these particular unions have basically said, you know, even though hundreds of thousands of MTA workers and city and state workers have gotten a certain deal in terms of wage and benefit improvements, we want a different and better deal, and that's not the way things work in this area and even worse, you know, they are resisting our efforts to say we have to get rid of these antiquated, abusive work rules where people get paid double and triple just because they operated different kinds of equipment on a single day. It's nonsense, so you've got to get rid of the crazy -

Kramer: Yeah, but they don't like that-

Lieber: Yeah, but you know, too bad, so sad. You know, it's the 21st century and the idea that you should be paid double because you operated an electric train as well as a diesel train on a certain day just because you moved the train in the yard to get ready for the next day rush hour is nutty and we should get rid of those kinds of abuses. And frankly, you know, our riders are telling us that they read about some of the rip-offs that people in one of the commuter railroads were engaged in where they were developing fake ID cards so they could swipe in and out even when they weren't there and they're saying I don't want any whiff of abuse and rip offs anymore. You've got to get rid of the work rules and you've got to clamp down on people taking advantage of the public.

Kramer: So my last question is, do you have a favorite subway then?

Lieber: Listen, I'm a train guy. I live in Brooklyn. I love it. It needs some new subway cars because we got the R-46s, those cars from the late 1970s.

Kramer: And you can't get new cars on the ?

Lieber: We're going to get - they're coming. They're on the, they actually got a few new cars on the train, the R-211s, the new ones you've seen in the system are now on the train, which is the express train that goes to my general neighborhood, but my home station is the , and I got to give a lot of love to the , and I love the conductors who are all friends at this point on the train. It's a great crew.

Kramer: Okay, thank you so much for joining me, and thank you at home for joining us as well.