One on one conversation with Foreign Minister of Armenia Ararat Mirzoyan

One on one conversation with Foreign of Foreign Affairs of Armenia Ararat Mirzoyan took place within the Yerevan Dialogue.

Samir Saran. Good afternoon and welcome to a conversation with the man behind all of this, behind the Yerevan Dialogue, behind the very important week we have seen in Armenia with the European Community, with the bilateral dialog between the EU and Armenia, the state visit of the French president, and so much more. So congratulations, Minister, for these very, very intense days, which have allowed dialogues between so many different actors. Minister, Yerevan Dialogue born three years ago, must be giving you immense satisfaction today.

Ararat Mirzoyan. Good afternoon everyone. Thank you for coming, and, dear Samir, dear friend, thank you so much for accepting my proposal, my offer to moderate this conversation.

And yes, of course, to see so many leaders in Yerevan, European leaders, members of the European Political Community, to see so many topics being discussed in the frame of the EPC Summit, but also Armenia-EU Summit, which took place first time in history, and also being a participant of President Macron's state visit, and later, being participant of so many interesting discussions happening on this floor is very exciting. And frankly, we haven't had the time to assess what has happened during the last 3-4 days, and also the discussions here within Yerevan Dialogue, but at first glance, I can say that, yes, we are satisfied.

Samir Saran. Minister, let me cut straight to some of the key issues that we have been discussing. And I wanted your thoughts. We could benefit from your insights. The first, of course, is that Armenia was seen as a country that was constrained by geography. Over the last three years, since I have been here, under your leadership, the leadership of the Prime Minister of Armenia, we have seen this same geography being turned into a strategic asset, an asset for connectivity, an asset for cooperation and an asset for unleashing the future of in many ways the region. How have you been able to convert this geography into a strategic advantage?

Ararat Mirzoyan. Well, let me express my congratulations, Dr. Samir, because you somehow managed to dig and reach to the roots of the of the challenges that we are having now in this region, or maybe I'm mistaken, and this is quite a simple observation to make, or quite a simple conclusion to come to looking from aside, but, to tell the truth, this is an issue in understanding of which we have spent decades and decades, if not centuries. We, I mean people in Armenia, Armenian society, Armenian political thought in general, we have always been thinking that we live in a very tough, dangerous region where our independence and our existence was always being questioned. And this is true, partially or completely true, but the challenge has always been how to turn this threat into an advantage. And this is exactly what we are now trying to do in Armenia.

So when the whole world is looking for new routes, for supplying chains, for new transportation corridors, being an obstacle means remaining a threat always, because - you know, we have been also talking much about water these days - being an obstacle on the way of water is quite a stupid thing to do, because the water will always find its way. So the challenge is how to become a bridge rather than an obstacle. So this is what we are now trying to do in Armenia.

We somehow understood that we can connect Europe with Central Asia, with the Far East, with India, China, and this, in turn, can be not only a way to save our existence, our sovereignty, but also another additional guarantee for further peaceful prosperity. And we should also notice that peace - yes, it might be an obvious solution, but on the other hand - you cannot build peace alone. So you cannot declare peace and live in peace when your neighbors consider you as an enemy, and they want to destroy you. So again, the challenge is to create a situation where all the neighbors, all the actors in the region and beyond the region as well, are interested in peace and want to secure peace, and want to create modus vivendi in this region, tolerance, cooperation. Here we are currently.

Samir Saran. Let me dig deep into the modus vivendi, let me ask you about what's happening in the region, the process of normalization of relations, especially with respect to two actors: one is your relationship with Türkiye and the other, of course, with Azerbaijan. How are we moving in those normalization processes?

Ararat Mirzoyan. Well, I'm sure you know that we have borders with four neighbors․ In the North, we have Georgia, with whom we have always had friendly relations. In the South, we have Iran, with whom we, again, have always had friendly relations and cooperation. But, of course, the situation around Iran is complicated by itself. And in the West and East, we have Türkiye and Azerbaijan, and we have had conflict with Azerbaijan for decades and decades, and we have had closed borders on West and East. So we started a dialogue. We initialed the Peace Treaty with Azerbaijan. This Treaty is not signed and ratified yet, but the peace already works. We have peace on the ground. We don't have casualties. It's already been more than a year that we don't have any single casualty on the border with Azerbaijan as a result of shooting.

Moreover, Azerbaijan lifted the ban to transport goods to Armenia and from Armenia through their territory. This is already a very serious, significant sign of established peace. Moreover, we started bilateral trade with Azerbaijan. We buy oil products from Azerbaijan. We will be selling some products to Azerbaijani companies. So this is real evidence of peace.

Again, I don't want to exaggerate anything, and I can say that all the issues are resolved. We have had bloody conflict, the wounds are very fresh, and the two societies still need to have a real reconciliation. There are still some unresolved issues, especially of humanitarian nature, detainees, etc. But the path is quite optimistic.

With Türkiye, the situation is even better. We have wonderful dialogue. We have several instances of cooperation, like just yesterday, our representative signed a protocol on the implementation of joint restoration works on the historic Ani bridge, which is on the border of Armenia and Türkiye. We have flights: Turkish Airlines came to be the second Turkish air carrier to organize flights between Armenia and Türkiye and etc, etc. A week or so ago, the third meeting of the working group took place. Working group which tries to relaunch the rail connection between Armenia and Türkiye through Gyumri-Kars railway connection. So we do have several instances of cooperation, but, all in all, the border is still closed.

We have expressed bilaterally our readiness to establish diplomatic relations. We have mutually expressed our readiness to completely open the border. There was an agreement to open the border at first stage for third country nationals and also for diplomatic passport holders - I mean Turkish and Armenian citizens - but the border is so far closed. Some of the agreements are being realized, some of them are on the road, and they still need to be realized. But I'm sure, and I now can express confidence, this is going to happen because Armenia-Türkiye dialogue has, let me put it in this way, has matured enough to give the final truth.

So again, coming back to the direct question - we now have ground to express optimism regarding cooperation and normalization of relations in the South Caucasus.

Samir Saran. I'm confident that we are seeing a positive trajectory. Let me turn to another geopolitical question. You know, actors like the EU, countries like India talk about strategic autonomy․ In some sense, from an Armenian lens, what does strategic autonomy mean? You are recalibrating and resetting a new relationship with Russia. You have a deeper engagement with the EU, clearly, the European Union, the Trump administration is deeply invested in Armenia. You're friends with everyone. So foreign policy from an Armenian lens, how does that look today?

Ararat Mirzoyan. An interesting question again, and this is probably very closely connected with your first question. This is a question about or of philosophy of Armenian political thought. This is a question about how we perceive the world which is surrounding us. Again, for decades and decades, if not centuries, we have been thinking that in this hostile environment we need some one major friend, a big brother who can protect us. Now this perception has changed, including because of when the time came and we indeed needed the protection of a bigger friend, it did not come and it largely changed the perception of foreign policy among ordinary Armenians. I'm not even speaking about the political establishment and political elites.

And now we have somehow succeeded and this is where we want, the direction in which we want to go. We somehow succeeded to decrease our dependence, be it political, be it economic or energy wise, we have succeeded to decrease our dependence on one center, our ties and connections with one center, and diversify the list of our friends. As you correctly mentioned, we have established a strategic partnership with the United States. The United States plays a key role in the establishment of peace between Armenia and Azerbaijan. The United States is playing a key role in opening the transport infrastructure, communications in the South Caucasus. I'm sure you know about the TRIPP project - Trump Route for International Peace and Prosperity, which includes railways, electricity grids, internet cables, maybe in future oil, gas pipelines. So this is all about connection, connection between Armenia and Azerbaijan. Connection between Armenia, Azerbaijan, Türkiye, Georgia and beyond this region as well - Europe, Central Asia, Far East.

We established a strategic partnership with the European Union. We have very close relations with India, strategic partnership with China, Kazakhstan, and we still keep our strong ties with Russia.

But again, the goal is to diversify the sources, but also the markets, the ties in general. This is what we are doing․ And to conclude, or to put the long story short, the expression strategic autonomy, which is very popular in India or elsewhere, we understand in the way of balancing and balanced foreign policy, in diversification of partners, markets.

Samir Saran. Minister, you mentioned something very interesting. You mentioned foreign policy, elite and the wider public. So I want to ask how interested is the common public in Armenia in foreign policy? How much interest there is? How much are you followed, or how many questions do you get from students and young people? How interested? But I'll come to that later.

My next question to you is on the diaspora. Again, you know, sometimes my questions may seem a little biased. India has a very large diaspora. Armenia has a very large diaspora. So that's why I'm asking you. How can they be an asset to foreign policy? How important is their thinking when you are making your frameworks in Yerevan these days. How much do you consider their interests as you define your foreign policy?

Ararat Mirzoyan. There is an interesting expression which is very frequently used these days describing any relationship - it's complicated. Indeed, we have a large Armenian diaspora. They are an asset, they are our compatriots. But also, we all should understand that they are citizens of different countries, and their views do not necessarily coincide with their compatriots living somewhere else. For instance, I don't think that Armenians of the United Kingdom, Australia, or the United States coincide with the interests and views of Armenians living in Russia, for instance. And which is more important for us today, these views of the diaspora Armenians do not necessarily coincide with the views and needs and the interests of Armenians who are citizens of the Republic of Armenia, Armenians who live here, whose homeland and whose country is the Republic of Armenia.

And we are having a frank discussion today, so I will be very open. We should understand that huge part of diaspora are descendants of survivors of Armenian Genocide. They had to escape, they had to find shelter or refuge somewhere else far from this region. So many in diaspora think that they deserve and they want to see a bigger Armenia, a historic Armenia, one which existed, which has set its glorious past, rich history, but which is a dream now. It is not the real Armenia. We in the Republic of Armenia, we live in this concrete region with these concrete neighbors, and we don't want to spend another decade, another century, another millennia, to fight with neighbors, to lose more generations on the battlefield, to lose more generations who will be escaping from a battlefield, from a conflict and finding, solution or a safe harbour somewhere else. So in this sense, views and needs of citizens of the Republic of Armenia can differ from those of diaspora Armenians. This is an interesting issue. This is an issue which we should deeply discuss, deeply understand, and, of course, find the solution. And I'm pretty much sure that this solution is coming, and when I see indications more and more on a daily basis from diaspora and Armenians that they are now starting to understand what this real Republic of Armenia needs, and we hear more and more supportive voices from the diaspora.

Samir Saran. I think it's always a fine balancing act to engage them on matters which are essential for Armenia - could be technology, could be infrastructure, investments, private sector, and at the same time, have a conversation on how the politics of the future might be different to the land they had imagined in their own stories. But I want to come back to what I had left with you in my previous question. You mentioned the citizens of the Republic of Armenia. How interested are the citizens on foreign policy today? How much interest do the youth or different diverse demographics show in your work?

Ararat Mirzoyan. It can't be more. Almost every single citizen, youngsters, elderly people, everyone is very much engaged in foreign policy currently in Armenia. This is the topic number one, which is being discussed at kitchens, at any gathering on a public level, because the challenges, the events that took place here in Armenia and around Armenia during the last 3, 4, 5 years are very crucial, and the path through which we have passed is difficult but also needs engagement, the engagement of everyone. So, for instance, we, the ruling party of the Republic of Armenia, the current government, led by Prime Minister Pashinyan, proposes a completely different vision, an unusual vision for Armenians, for the Republic of Armenia. So this needs to be adapted and approved by the citizens of Armenia. We had a snap parliamentary election to give this mandate five years ago. Now we are going to have another election, a regular one in the early days of June. And you know, the topic number one, which is being discussed within this electoral campaign, is peace, peace agenda. So all the politicians, all the political parties, all the citizens of the Republic of Armenia should make their decision regarding this foreign policy concept that we are supposedly suggesting.

Samir Saran. You know, in India, we have seen that when some issue happens in foreign policy - China, the US neighbourhood, or the Middle East - we have so many experts on Twitter. Everyone has an opinion, but everyone is also an expert. And sometimes it is a fine balance, engaging with the public but yet having to make decisions that are right for the country. So, you know, there's an expert opinion versus a public opinion, and how do you sometimes balance those two?

Ararat Mirzoyan. Oh, well, in Armenia we have 3 million citizens, and all of them are experts when it comes to COVID, all of them are experts when it comes to foreign policy, all of them are experts in any single topic, and we have 3 million experts, which is the specifics of the 21st century and these social media things. Sometimes it's hard even to make any difference between real and online lives, but this is what we have now. On the other hand, this is good. Engagement is always good. This is a sign of direct democracy as well. In ancient times they had Agoras in ancient Greece to gather people and to discuss the issues, later we had referendums and elections; now we have social media. In some sense this is also good. On the other hand, there is also objective ground specifically for Armenia. The motto "Riding through the Storms» - we, in Armenia, have passed through the storms, internal storms as well. The way that we see - the way out of this storm - should be thoroughly discussed and it should be a decision not of the ruling party, the Prime Minister or me or anyone else; it should be the decision of the whole society.

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