Minister Plibersek interview on Sky News

E&OE TRANSCRIPT

TOPICS: MIDDLE EAST CONFLICT; MARK CARNEY VISIT; MAFS

LAURA JAYES: I want to bring in now the Social Services Minister, Tanya Plibersek. Tanya, thanks so much for your time. Now that we are entering a fifth day of this war, is it clear to you what the mission is and do we still entirely support it?

TANYA PLIBERSEK, MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SERVICES: Well, Australia's support is on a very clear basis. The Iranian regime is a murderous regime that's killed tens of thousands of its own civilians, but it's also launched attacks in Australia, on Australian soil, against Australia. I mean, we've made it clear from the beginning that we support the US and Israel in trying to prevent Iran developing a nuclear weapon, because we know a regime like the Iranian regime prepared to murder its own citizens, prepared to attack Australia on our soil, shouldn't have a nuclear weapon.

JAYES: So, do we support the stated objectives by Marco Rubio? He says it is to knock out, make sure Iran can never have any nuclear weapons, to knock out the missiles. But he is less clear on whether regime change is the goal here. What is our position on regime change?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, our position is, as we've said from the very beginning in that statement, first statement that you referred to, Laura, we support Iran not having a nuclear weapon. You wouldn't expect us to participate in the strikes. As the Foreign Minister has said, our first and most important objective now is to get Australians safely home from the region. That's our focus now, and we'll continue to work cooperatively with allies. But, you know, the Foreign Minister has been pretty clear where our limits are.

JAYES: The government, the opposition, I should say, has been criticising the government for being too slow for getting Australians home. What do you say to that?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, I say it's, you know, a day with a Y in it, and the opposition's criticised the government. Nothing new here. It is unfortunate that at times that are very consequential nationally and internationally, they want to pick fights for political advantage instead of working, as we always did, in opposition, cooperatively with the government of the day at times when Australia's interests are under such pressure with international events. We've had very clear warnings on Smartraveller for some time. Those warnings have been in line with warnings that other nations have given to their citizens, and they included the warning that things can change very quickly and deteriorate very quickly in the Middle East. I think it's unfortunate when you've got an opposition that wants to make hay while Australians caught, 115,000 of them we believe, in the Middle east trying to get home.

JAYES: Can you tell us how many of those actually want to come home? Because 115,000. If they all wanted to come home, that would certainly change the equation quite dramatically for the government, I imagine.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, well, we're in contact with many of those Australians. They've registered with the government to get updates on how they can get safely home. We are urging people to take any opportunity to get onto to a commercial flight. Obviously commercial flights have been very badly disrupted, but we believe, well one returned home overnight and we believe that there are three more hopefully scheduled for leaving today. Australians who are overseas should register with Smartraveller website. There is a 24-hour, seven day a week consular assistance line. We've got consular teams, six of them, consular emergency teams flying over to the Middle east as we speak. And we are offering every assistance that we possibly can to Australians who are trying to get home. But it is a difficult and uncertain situation with flights being cancelled and delayed quite regularly. People have to stay in touch with the Australian government and they should also stay in touch with their airline.

JAYES: Mark Carney's visit comes at a really interesting time today in Parliament. You'll remember his speech at Davos just a couple of weeks ago where he referenced Trump saying middle powers like Canada, like Australia, perhaps need to rise up really and check the what he described as unrestrained power from superpowers, referring to America. Given that we're five days into this war, are Mark Carney's comments more, I guess, salient right now? How do you take them?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: I think Mark Carney's comments were very well received and they're quite right. It is important for middle powers like Canada and Australia that share very similar values to work together in the international arena. We've had some great cooperation with Canada on issues of interest to them and to us. Mark Carney's visit here, of course, allows us to work through the issues that he's talking about with middle powers cooperating on global issues. But there's also obviously an economic element to his visit. We've got cooperation that we're interested in on issues like critical minerals, business investment, two-way business investment. Canada is a country very similar to Australia in lots of ways, economically, socially, in our ethos, the way that we operate as democracies and working together on issues of mutual interest is a great opportunity for us. We're very, very pleased to have Mark Carney here.

JAYES: We've seen how vicious Trump can be when it comes to comments towards foreign leaders. Indeed, allies in the last couple of days saying to Keir Starmer, well, he's no Winston Churchill. He had some choice words for the Spanish Prime Minister as well. If, I mean, what is Australia's role here? Does Mark Carney's presence, as you know, the urging of middle powers to rise up, does that create a problem for Anthony Albanese and your government?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Not at all. Not at all. And this is not rising up against anyone. We're just simply saying that middle powers like Australia. Our own Prime Minister said this at the UN in very similar terms to Mark Carney before Mark Carney made the speech that so many people noticed. Anthony Albanese was at the UN saying very similar things. There are countries that we share interests and values with and we should work together on issues of mutual interest. That's not working against anyone. It's just making clear that countries like us, we're not a big voice globally, particularly. Look at the Middle East as a good example. We're a very small player in the Middle east, but where there are issues that we can cooperate on and agree on with countries with similar values, we should be doing that. And for Australia, that's, of course it is countries like Canada, like New Zealand, like France, but it's also countries in our region. We have been working very assiduously on new agreements with PNG, with Indonesia, with some of our Pacific neighbours in our region. We need to make sure that we're working cooperatively for Australia's national interests to make sure that we work with our neighbours in our own interests and the interests of stability in the region. Southeast Asia, another great example. Europe, we're working to, you know, have a good strong trade agreement with the European Union, a huge market for Australia's goods. We want to make sure that we've got a beneficial trade agreement with the European Union. We need to be working on all of our relationships simultaneously. That's not working against anyone. That's working in Australia's national interests.

JAYES: Is a prolonged war in the Middle East in our interests?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, no war is in Australia's interests. We are always seeking stability and de-escalation. We certainly want to see de-escalation in the Middle East. Of course, there will be economic impacts if this war continues. We've seen that from Ukraine, of course, it's had an impact on the global economy. What affects the global economy certainly also affects the Australian economy. There are people who are expressing concern about fuel supplies in the future in Australia. I have to say, the actions that we have taken as a government to secure fuel supplies here in Australia put us in a very good position. We've got the best supply, backup fuel supply that we've had in Australia in 15 years, right now, because of actions our government has taken. Unfortunately, under the previous government, our emergency fuel supplies were held in Texas, not here in Australia. And unfortunately, under the previous government, four out of six Australian refineries closed. We've got two refineries still left. And we know that they play a really important role in our fuel self-sufficiency. We're very well aware of the need for stocks also for things like AdBlue, for trucking, for fertiliser. We've got construction of a new fertiliser plant occurring in Western Australia as we speak. But all of these things of course impact our economy.

JAYES: The RBA is obviously concerned about inflation as the government and the rest of us are worried about it. As long as this war goes on, I think the inflation picture becomes clearer and clearer. Can you give a assurance that this government won't use the budget to, and this war as an excuse not to, to rein in spending and try and tackle inflation?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, as you've heard from the Treasurer, we are of course very focused on the inflation challenge in the budget and on productivity. And the Treasurer has made it very clear that this will be a bold budget that will include spending restraint. Just on the issue of inflation, we've got two countervailing forces that we need to watch very closely with this conflict in the Middle East. One of them is the potential for price pressures for inflation. Another one is the impact on the potential to slow growth. We had some excellent growth numbers yesterday that shows that the Australian economy is not just growing strongly better than other advanced economies, but it's growing strongly in the right way. We want to make sure that we continue to have good, strong growth, but keep an eye on inflation. And the situation in the Middle east complicates that. It's something that we'll be watching and working very closely with.

JAYES: There has been some evidence of government spending is up as well. But I just want to ask you just on the issue about whether we need to review our immigration standards. Tanya, you would have seen over the last couple of days there was a number of mosques in Sydney and Melbourne that were mourning the death of the Supreme Leader. Some of these mosques had been given taxpayer money through the form of grants. Do you have a problem with either of those issues? Does something need to change there?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, I think anyone who is responsible for the death of tens of thousands of their own citizens just because they disagree with the government should not be mourned. I mean, the Ayatollah has been a brutal dictator against his own people. He's also launched attacks against Australian interests on Australian soil. I mean, the fact that we had to expel the Iranian ambassador, the first time that's happened with any country since the Second World War, shows how seriously we take the threat of Iranian interference and violence here in Australia. I don't understand why anyone would be mourning his death.

JAYES: But what are the consequences then for these people? And does the government even know how many sympathisers there might be?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, a couple of things. We were made aware that one of the organisations was in line to get some taxpayer funding. The Minister, Anne Aly, put a stop to that. She's called in that proposal and is having a close look at it now. But we make it very clear that it is not in line with Australian values to be mourning the death of a dictator who has murdered tens of thousands of his own people and launched attacks against Australia on Australian soil. Just remembering as well the thing, the scenes that we've seen in Iran where security forces have brutally cracked down, particularly on young people, on young women, for not wanting to cover their hair. The movement for freedom for women in Iran is one that has particularly captured my attention. The simple rights that people are asking for, being dealt with in the most brutal way, is completely unacceptable to Australian, and Australian values completely contrary to what we see as acceptable.

JAYES: We can't forget that this women, life, freedom movement actually started in 2022 with some very brave women out of Iran. Which brings me back to kind of the original question there. Australians apparently mourning the death of the Supreme Leader. You say the Government's made it clear that's totally unacceptable, but are there consequences? I mean, are these people a security risk?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, just to be clear, we have actually listed the Iranian Revolutionary Guard as a banned organisation in Australia. That happened under us and it happened recently. So, if there are people who are sympathisers of that organisation, there are legal consequences for doing that--

JAYES: Is that essentially supporting terrorists though?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, I'm not going to make broad and sweeping comments. It is the sort of thing that I'm sure that our security and intelligence services are all over. And if there are people that are supporting the Iranian Revolutionary Guard or that are terrorism sympathisers, I expect that they are very much on the radar of our security and intelligence organisations.

JAYES: I mean, I don't know whether they've been arrested. Would that be too much? I mean, what about the mosques who actually organised it?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Look, yeah, I don't think you can just speculate like that, that it is a matter to be sensibly dealt with and properly investigated.

JAYES: Indeed. There's no easy segue to this. But I want to talk about MAFS because it's not a frivolous topic either.

MINSITER PLIBERSEK: It's quite a contrast Laura.

JAYES: Yeah, isn't it? But it is serious as well. This is on your social media. Let me play a grab of you to you.

[AUDIO PLAYS]

JAYES: Yeah, it is a really popular show. Many of my friends watch it. I can't say I know any of these characters. That is my confession here on AM Agenda. It's not really my flavour. But seriously, I mean, this is not the only incident on MAFS, it kind of normalises misogyny, it normalises bullying. What's your concern about it? What should be done?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, look, I think our understanding of family and domestic violence is really evolving over time. And one of the things that the state governments have started to do is legislate against coercive control. In situations of coercive control, what often happens is the perpetrator of violence isolates, it's usually a woman, isolates a woman controls her financially, separates her from friends and family, controls every element of her life. How often she'll work, whether she's allowed outside the home. That is unhealthy. That is domestic violence. It often leads to physical violence or sexual abuse, not always, it can stay as coercive control, but even that is now being understood as domestic violence. When you have a man talking about obedience from a woman, that's coercive control. My parents had, in lots of ways, a pretty traditional relationship. My dad went out to work, he was the breadwinner. My mum looked after us at home, but they made every decision together. My mother was never frightened of my father. So, we're not talking about traditional relationships being bad. We're simply saying that one human being does not have the right to control another human being. That men and women are equal and should have equal say and equal power and equal freedom in relationships. And the problem with having this sort of thing on a really popular show like MAFS, we know parents watch it with their kids. It's the whole family, sometimes on the couch watching it. If we're sending out messages that it's just a relationship choice to control someone in a relationship, that's a really unhealthy message. We're doing so much work as a government, we've got $83 million for respectful relationships programs. We're working with kids who've been victims of domestic violence so they don't repeat cycles. We're working with teenage boys who use violence in their relationship, working with perpetrators of violence who want to change their behaviour. We've got money with Teach Us Consent, the fantastic organisation that Chantel Contos started, to talk to young people in language they understand about equality and healthy relationships. We're doing all this work. We've banned social media for under 16s. We really need, we really need the makers of shows like this to get on board as well, and not platform this sort of stuff, because we know that clip, that those sorts of statements get taken out of context and they feed this toxic sludge that's being fed to our boys. Our boys are learning about relationships from pornography and, you know, stuff like this from the manosphere. The area where we see the greatest rise in violence against women is sexual assault, where the perpetrator and the victim are both under the age of 18. We really need to protect our boys from this stuff.

JAYES: Well said. Thank you so much for your time, Tanya Plibersek.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Thanks Laura.